Lino Miele Interview

From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part2 (2/2)

ls it a spiritual practice he's teaching?
Yeah, i think it's spiritual in the way most people use that word. You
could also say it’s beyond spiritual. If someone has a concept of spiritual-
ity, this is much more interesting than anything they could imagine. But

it's definitely a totally spiritual practice. However, if someone comes to it
and has no interest in what they believe spirituality to be, if they just take
up the practice for improving their health or fixing some biomechanical
problem in the body, it'll prove effective but it will also put them in touch
with their core feelings. And just by touching those core feelings they
will start inquiring into what is real. They'll start to ask: "Why am I suf-
fering all the time?" “What is true?" And so they've come to the right
place. And so yoga in a sense is like a fountain. People will go to it, for
many different reasons but because they've gone to the source they start
to get a taste for it, and they might not really understand why they like it
but they'll keep coming back to the source and eventually they'll just
jump right back in.

It is spiritual in the sense that the Atman, the soul, is revealed, but at the
same time there is a methodology as well, so is it somehow a fusion of those
two things?
Exactly. If we say that what is of most interest to the open mind, to the
open heart, is beyond expression, beyond words, also therefore beyond
technique. our first reaction is “I won't do anything." But the fascinating
thing about practice is that what is manifesting as the body and the mind
is composed of strings and strings of techniques, and so yoga is actually
the art of using techniques with incredible skill and through that one
naturally arrives at a place where there is no technique anymore but free-
dom. This is one of the major themes of the Bhagavad Gita, one of the
extremely illusive themes, that the truth is ultimately formless because it
generates all forms. How can it be approached? How can you realize it?
lt’s actually through seeing forms with an open mind and allowing the
body and the mind to complete their natural tendencies to complete
their forms. and in that you release form.

So you have to see all the forms that your mind wants to manifest to actually
see behind them, mul that goes for all the different asanas as well.
Yes, each one is sacred, each one is like a mandala, or in the Hindu tra-
dition they use the word "yantra," which is a sacred diagram. Yantras have
very distinct forms, so a yoga asana has a very distinct outer form and a
very distinct internal form. and if you are able to go into it, in sometimes

excruciating detail and intensity, and you see it as sacred, if you are sim-
ply able to observe it without reducing it to some concept or theory, then
you are free from that form. The very heart of the yantra or mandala is
you. Then another form comes which happens to be the next pose in the
series, and eventually you are able to see all of these as an expression of
the same internal principle. lt's just that at certain points we get con-
fused and we're not able to see it as sacred, as spiritual.

Has Guruji described to you diflerent mental forms that relate to the differ-
ent asanas?
No, he hasn't. just practice. What he has clone is he's given me a lot of
things to study, books to read. hoping that I will be fascinated and extract
information from them.

Why is there such a strong emphasis on asana practice in this system? What
is the function of going back to the same place daily?
The practice is like a mirror. We go to the mirror every morning to tidy
ourselves up before going out into the world, and the practice is like a
mirror for what's in your heart and what's in your mind. If you are able to
approach the practice from an internal space, it's always new. The same
old pose is always fascinating because you are using it as an object of
meditation rather than as a means to get something. And that way you
are able to practice and practice and practice—perhaps forever.

What is the attitude one needs to get that experience?
I think the key to ashtanga practice is bhakti. which is devotion or love.
The eight limbs are accessories to that heart. Bhakti is probably the clos-
est thing to what yoga is. And so guru bhukti, which is a direct relation-
ship or love for the teacher. is one aspect of bhakti that is extremely
helpful.


From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part1 (1/3)
From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part2 (2/3)

From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part2 (2/3)

Guruji and Richard Freeman

So how does Guruji's system bring you face-to-face with that experience? Or does it? Is it specific to this type of yoga, or is it part of any yoga teaching?
It would be part of any yoga teaching. The question is: Does the system
work. or does the collection of systems and methodology work? And in
many cases, in many schools of yoga, not a lot is happening. Yoga tradi-
tionally has been passed down from teacher to student over thousands of
years. and often the lineages are broken, so it is like a wire that is broken
and no current flows through it, so the actual internal teaching doesn't
get transmitted.

Do you know how far back this lineage goes beyond Krishnmnacharya's
teacher? Do we know anything about Rama Mohan Brahmachari's teacher?

No, we don't. Of course, Guruji has a family lineage which is the lineage
of Shankaracharya. And he is constantly making reference to Shankara-
charya. to teachers in the Shankaracharya lineage, and he has much in-
volvement in that, and his yoga gum, Sri Krishnamacharya, also has his
yoga guru and his family lineage. It's a complex thing to study.

Shankaracharya

.
How important is a guru when practicing yoga, and how does Guruji perform that function of separating the light from the darkness?
The guru is practically the key to the whole system. I suppose in theory,
if one were extremely intelligent and extremely lucky and extremely kind,
you could learn yoga from a book and you could do very well and get very far. But with a teacher, you develop a relationship. and something right at
the heart of that relationship carries the essence of the practice, and so
the various techniques that you might learn, even the various philoso-
phies you might leam, are placed in an immediate context by the guru.
That context is simply one of complete, open relationship, complete
presence. It's a great thing. So if there's a great teacher around, take ad-
vantage of it! If there's no teacher around, practice anyway.

How would you characterize Guruji's teaching method?
When I first met Guruji, he reminded me very much of a Zen Buddhist
teacher in that he used very few words in his classes. The words he
would use were like koans, they were puzzling, at least to most of the
students. And often, he was just trying to wake you up with what he was
doing. It wasn't so much the content of what he was saying. He would
sometimes try to distract you or to place you in a kind of double bind
where you might just laugh and let your breath flow and all of a sudden
find yourself doing a posture that you had feared two minutes before.
l remember doing backbends in Mysore with Guruji. We were just
standing and arching back and grabbing our knees which is, if you think
about it, very scary at times. I was all set to do it with my arms crossed
and he looked at my shorts which were soaking wet and cotton and he
said, “Oh, nice material!" just as I was starting to drop back and made me
completely forget my preconceptions. And the backbend was no problem
at all.

When there is fear going into a pose, does he have a technique to take you
deeper, beyond your body's apparent natural capacity?
l think what he does is he makes you drop your presuppositions, your
preconceptions about your body and therefore about your limitations.
Oftentimes you'll approach him and say, “Oh Guruji, this muscle is hurt-
ing" or "This bone has this problem." And he'll just look at you and say,
“What muscle?" In other words, he is inviting you again to look with a
completely fresh mind to see if there is anything really there. And by
dropping the concept you have around a sensation or feeling, you release
them. Many times the concept is the limiting factor. He's a master at
that: seeing if there is some fear or some attachment. And usually, in a
very kind, sometimes gentle, sometimes abrupt way, he'll get you to re-
frame a situation.

ls he imparting that skill to Sharath?
l think naturally he is. That's just the way he relates to people, and so
Sharath is bound to pick it up I think.

Guruji and Sharath

It's interesting because Sharath is still involved with practicing with
Guruji immediately present, which is an intense way to practice. So
Sharath experiences sometimes a lot of pain, sometimes his own fear,
and so he is very sympathetic with the students, very compassionate, be-
cause he has learned to be compassionate with himself when he prac-
tices. Guruji is also that way, but he doesn't do asana practice anymore
and so he just takes you right into it.






From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part1 (1/3)
From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part2 (3/3)

From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part1 (1/3)

Richard Freeman met Guruji after an extensive period of spiritual un-

dertakings which began in I967 and included living as a monk in India,

becoming an avid yoga practitioner, and devoting himself to philosophi-

cal studies. He has been instrumental in spreading aslmmga yoga in lhe

West.

How did you first find out about ashtanga yoga, and how did you find your

way to Mysore?
I don’t remember when I first heard about it, but I knew of its existence
for a number of years. First, through the work of Desikachar—the concept
of vinyasa, that things occur in sequences and that you can practice yoga
asana in sequences. And then I learned that Pattabhi jois was going to
come to the United States and lead a workshop at the Feathered Pipe
Ranch in Montana. and so I signed up right away. When I met him I was
enthralled by his radiance and his kindness. We almost had an instant
connection. And fortunately; we were in a place that was isolated. There
were two classes every day and hours of time in between to talk, and it was
an exciting experience. I was swept off my Feet by Guruji when I met him.

What was your first impression of him?
I was impressed by his smile, his radiance, his overall sweetness. I found
him extremely accessible. He was willing to tell me anything I wanted to
know, and that was actually rare in teachers. I was swept off my feet.

I 've often heard Guruji say he teaches real or original Patanjali yoga. 
What was your experience of him as a teacher of true yoga?
When someone says they teach Patanjali yoga, the eight limbs of yoga,
they are implying that not only do they teach asana and pranayama but
also samadhi and all of the stages of meditation and then the release, or
the self-realization through samadhi. My experience of Guruji is that this
is what his interest is. Practically his only interest in life is to fulfill the
whole yoga system. His emphasis is, of course, on intense asana practice
at first. but through that asana practice with the vinyasa methodology he
is also teaching the fundamentals of pranayama and meditation. And
much later on in his system, these particular parts are separated out and
refined. But in a sense he is teaching the eight limbs initially through
asana practice, and when one picks up the thread inside, we find that the
other limbs are very easy to practice. And so he is saying the first four
limbs of yoga—yaama, niyama, asana. and pranayama—are very difficult,
but if you are grottnded in them, the intemal limbs are easy and occur
spontaneously. naturally.

Does he actually teach them  themselves or are they just incorporated in
the asana practice?
He teaches them on a one-to-one basis when he wants to. If someone is
really interested, dying for it, he teaches the internal limbs. Practically,

you have to be experiencing them already so that it's easy to teach. If
someone is burning with desire. then they are so close that the teacher
doesn't have much to do except say yes, that's it.

Is samadhi far off for us?
Samadhi is very close. according to my understanding. Practicing yoga,
you gradually develop the ability to observe what is happening in the
present moment, and when you observe very closely what is actually occurring, then that is samadhi. And what is occurring is very close to us.
Usually we are looking at some other place rather than at what is actually
happening. So yoga asana and pranayama allow the attention to focus on
what is actually happening. Present feelings, present sensations, and the present pattem of the mind become sacred, they become the object of
meditation. So many people try to practice meditation but are trying to
practice by observing what isn't present. They are trying to look behind
this, they are trying to look anyplace, let me see anything but this. But
when you practice asanas enough, when you practice pranayama, the very
sensation that you are having presently is what is sacred. You stop looking
elsewhere and samadhi starts to occur.

From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part2 (2/3)
From the book "Guruji: A Portrait of Sri K. Pattabhi Jois Through the Eyes of His Students" Richard Freeman excerpts part2 (3/3)

Interview with Dany Sá

Thanks a lot Dany Sá for your time :) Your clip from the second series was the one first ashtanga videos that i saw, thanks!

1-what is your background in yoga?
Dany Sá:
I was professional dancer and I started to practice yoga in 2003. I fell in love at the first time! Since that, I started to study more and more. I started to practice Ashtanga regularly in 2006 with my teacher Matthew Vollmer that gave to me the first knowledge about the traditional practice and the series until advanced A. Now, I have often gone to Mysore to receive the teachings of Sharath Jois.

2-Have you noticed any change in your body as a result of the Ashtanga practice?
Dany Sá:
Sure, I’ve already had flexibility because of dance and some strength, but with Ashtanga I felt my body more balanced and healthy. The breathing helps me a lot to understand the right way to get into the posture easily without too much effort.

3-Do you think you've finally taken mula bandha in full control in the physical and energy sense to control the prana?
Dany Sá:
I’m still working on it! I think the daily practice helps us to understand this subtle control. My mula bandha is improving day by day.

Anthony Gary Lopedota interview for Sthira&Bhaga

Anthony Gary Lopedota
Has been a great honor to interview  Anthony Gary Lopedota, one of the most important yogi in the world. Thank you very much for your time and inspiration.

You are one of the persons in the world who practices all the series (with the old advanced A&B) , i was reading a bit that you had some private sessions with Sri K Pattabhi Jois, i would love you to explain to me a bit about this experiencie with Guruji.

Anthony:I had four hour privates for about two months. It was the best time for me, really almost 4 months with a quadriplegic girl there for about two months. What I gained was imparted with his sincere touch every day and watching him work with the young girl with such inspiration and willingness to do whatever it took to bring about positive change. As much as i love and respect Guru Ji, I truly believe that we ( the yoga therapists ) have the ability to take the practice to a new and more healing level, maybe not more healing for all but definitely for some who do not respond to the ashtanga practice verbatim. I learned that we need to think outside the box form KP Jois who definitely thought outside the box. I will be coming out with a short video of a vinyasa series that addresses brain function, hemisphere balancing, addressing learning disabilities like dyslexia. Guru Ji's genius came a lot from his passion and love. When I would discover something that worked well with the practice and discussed and shared it with Guru Ji, he would get excited and showed me a lot of support and trust. I am sure that my injuries and challenges with my body are all blessings in disguise, it is no accident that doctors, therapists and clinicians have often felt like sharing their wisdom with me. Guru Ji and I would sit and drink coffee after class. He was so humble and yet very self assured. He believed in what he did. Those yogis that are inspired to learn and incorporate other body therapies are the next generation of this lineage. The fundamentalist approach is not in line with what KPJ did in his life or we would be doing exactly what Krishnamacharya taught.

You discovered that many injuries are the result of poor nutrition. And you applied a therapeutic form of ashtanga,do you think that ashtanga can be practiced for all of our lives.

 

Anthony:Ashtanga yoga puts an extraordinary amount of repetitious strain on the connective tissue of the body. If a person’s connective tissue is breaking down because of poor nutrition and acidic life style, the result will be an eventual and certain break down of the body. One could continue practicing the latter limbs of Ashtanga yoga but the asana practice would be a waste of time and would merely accelerate the breakdown of the articulating surfaces and the surrounding connective tissue. Guru Ji stopped his asana practice earlier than a lot of us would even consider. He continued with daily shirshasana and padmasana during pratyahara, pranayama, dharana, dyana, samadhi practice/experience.

why did you begin to practice yoga, and how much time did you spend with Guruji studying?

Anthony:Wow, never counted before, I believe it was eight times the longest being three times in Mysore at 3 to 4 months each.I was always attracted to yoga, martial arts, healing. It came natural to touch people in a healing way and ashtanga, like no other yoga, is practiced in that way. I remember touching and massaging relatives at gatherings when I was 9 years old and remember counseling in a spiritual manner when I was 5. Blessed to be born blind by California standards and sickly as a child, the path of healing and healer was carved out for me. 

When I was fourteen, yoga became an interest as well as martial arts; actually judo was my first practice when I was 12. At fifteen Paramahamsa Yoganada, Allan Watts, Aldous Huxley, Wilhelm Reich, Swami Ramacharacha, and many other authors became my interest and salvation. Yoga was in my stars.

Do you think you've finally taken mula bandha in full control in the physical and energy  sense to control the prana?

Anthony:As my body, subtle and gross adjusted to Ashtanga Yoga, it went through many changes some were quite radical. At one point when Brad Ramsey and I practiced together, this being after many private pranayama classes with Guru Ji, I started having convulsions. While I was sitting in padmasana doing pranayama, my body(torso) would start slamming forward so that it hit the floor with great force and total disregard for what my physical body was going through. This was an electrical response on the most subtle level of ida , pingala, sashumna nadi cleansing/reorganizing., although it looked anything but subtle. Good thing Bradley had my back. He was good at not emotional response and added only positive support. Other yogis when I explained this to them became quite scarred for me. Not everyone is cut out to meet Shiva. Later in my practice which has included three 40 day fasts in my life so far ( hand full of food and as much water as I wanted every day with some variation but not on the amount of solid food. All three times my weight ended up leveling off at 125#s.). It was during one of these fasts that the breath stopped during pranayama. I actually got scarred when I noticed and that ended the experience. Our prana and mullabanda develop at different rates. My mullabandha is quite developed but my prana is a bit behind. I have always had vices that are not yogicly pure if you will. The truth is, with grace we may have the control of both in the necessary situation and that is all that matters. Trying to cultivate siddhis is part of the egos arrogance.Siddhis naturally acquired and expressed are divine. 

interview with Sarath for the magazine yoga octuber 2011

Firstly, Sharathji, thank you for meeting
us. Can we start with your own story;how did your journey in Ashtanga Yoga
begin?
I was seven (years old) when I began
practicing yoga. But I was a child; I wasn’t
serious, so all I was doing was just playing

around with asanas. We lived in a joint family
at that point. Many students, from across the
world, would flock to our home to be initiated
into Ashtanga Yoga by my grandfather, Sri
K Pattabhi Jois. A few years later, we moved
to another place in Gokulam (a suburb in
Mysore).
Obviously, you pursued your practice?
Yes, it was the year 1989. I was 19. My
mother, Saraswathi, wanted me to go and
help Guruji (as my grandfather was known
among his students) in handling his classes.
So, one fine morning, I woke up with a decision
to get serious about yoga. I began going
to the shala at Lakshmipuram at 3am to begin
my practice at 4 am, sharp. I did that for nine
years and before I knew it, I was immersed in
its science and art.
Did yoga come easily to you?
Well, everyone has to struggle. Effort is
imperative, mandatory, almost. But slowly, the
magic began to happen. The more I invested
in it, better the results.
Also, since I’d experienced yoga early on in
life, I was able to pick it easily; I think, somewhere
I had internalized it. In two years, I had
turned into a serious practitioner.
So you had the good fortune to imbibe it straight from
Guruji?
Yes; I got individual attention from him. Also, there were only
a handful of students back then but as time went along, a whole
host of Indian students started knocking at his doors, wanting
to soak in the essence of Ashtanga Yoga.
But Guruji was kind enough to teach me everything he knew;
in addition to the practical side of yoga, he also spent time
teaching me a whole lot of theory, verses from the Bhagavad
Gita and other philosophical subjects. Like I said before, the
more I learnt, the more I wanted to learn.
Yoga, then, is a very personal experience?
That is right. Yoga is something that should really manifest itself
within you, on its own. This can happen for different people
at different levels.
Ashtanga Yoga is perceived as a highly physical practice.
Does it have a spiritual side to it?
You bet it does. It looks physical, intense even. But that’s only
the surface. Once you delve deeper, you can experience its inner
beauty. I often like to compare Ashtanga Yoga with an ocean.
What was your moment of epiphany in yoga?
Honestly, it was a slow process; I just liked and enjoyed it.
It was like a voyage of discovery that involved a great deal of
struggle. I also found that as I submerged myself in asanas (postures),

I began to feel meditative and quiet. As time went by, my urge to focus on the mat only got stronger. And that’s the thing about Ashtanga Yoga. Asanas are only one aspect of it.
So you were being trained to become a teacher?
No. I didn’t become a teacher instantly. Guruji made me understand
and experience Ashtanga Yoga and its essence before I could begin guiding others into it. Each posture, in Ashtanga Yoga, for instance, has a number of vinyasas. As a practitioner,
you need to experience it first before starting to teach others.
I remember initially, I would merely stay in a class with Guruji
and help people into certain complicated postures, etc. I did the
same in my mother’s class as well. I think a lot of it also came
with just being a silent observer. I would watch my grandfather
guide students and spend a large part of my day on research.
Swadhyay, meaning self-study is important. Only when you do
that, you’ll begin to see meaning in your practice. The other
thing is, teaching helps you discover a whole new side of things.
No two students are the same. Therefore, it’s imperative to
understand each person’s body and how much each one can
expect it to deliver.
You believe then it’s a slow and steady progression, right?
Journeying into yoga…
Yes. Becoming a master in this system requires dogged dedication
and commitment in addition to quality time. It doesn’t come
in a day. In the world we live in, one that perpetrates quick-fix
solutions, people are always looking for the fastest route to
becoming famous. This style of yoga is clearly not for them. First
and foremost, you need to like this system and want to lean and
experience it. I guess both my grandfather and I didn’t and don’t
have any desire or ambition to become famous. We just want to
practice.
Over the years of your tours and travels abroad, you’ve
managed to spread Ashtanga Yoga and its tradition to the
world. What has the experience been like?
We began traveling in the mid 90s simply because we wanted
to educate people in the West on an authentic system of yoga
practice. That, I think is imperative.
What about the classes here, in
Mysore?
Students from across the world, come
here to be guided into the basics and nuances
of Ashtanga Yoga. Twice a week, on Friday
and Sunday, there’s a led class. We also try to
educate our students on the yoga sutras and
some lessons in Sanskrit.
Can only young people practice Ashtanga
Yoga?
That’s not true. I have a student who is
55 and who has just started. He cannot do
many asanas; but that’s fine. The essential
thing is for people to understand that asana
is the foundation to understanding and appreciating
spirituality.
Are youngsters these days showing
interest in yoga, in general?
Well, we try to do our bit in inculating a
sense of interest. We
encourage them with scholarships
because we believe that each and
every person needs to learn yoga and experience
both the physical and
mental energy within us so we can all lead
better lives. Suffering is everywhere; we need
to find ways to overcome it. Yoga is a tool.
For instance, in the West, the practice of
yoga has fostered a sense of the family; it has
helped in keeping families connected with
each other.
Now at the helm of the
K Pattabhi Jois Ashtanga Yoga
Institute(KPJAYI), what are your various
plans?
In our mission to take yoga to youngsters,
we have been talking to schools to explore
the possibility of including it in their curriculum.
The Stanford University is looking at
starting classes for its students in Ashtanga
Yoga. The Virginia Tech University has invited
us recently; one of our students in the US
will be training students there. There is a
buzz about Michelle Obama, wanting to do a
programme on yoga across universities. Let’s
see…

Ilya Zhuravlev: "Mysore 1978" Interview with Mark and Joanne Darby (wildyogi.info)

Ilya: First question is common but usually always interesting for readers - how did you start practice yoga?

Mark Darby: It started when I was young. I was interested in spirituality, I wanted to be a priest. I grew up in Australia. I went to catholic school, But after I became disapointed with catholic church - I could not believe that God let only catholics go to Heaven. I could not belive that people somewhere in a jungle for example in Africa or anywhere that God would not let such people go to Heaven. I could not believe that God could be so cruel and I couldn't understand some other ideas. This was strict religious dogma... During my first trip to India I realised that spirituality is everywhere - among people on the streets, in the temples. It was living spirituality. I left India but i decided to go back. I loved this country and especially as I had felt something that was missing in me. I thought that if I visit India I will do yoga, because yoga tradition came from India. But I had no idea what yoga was - I asked different people about this, but the answers were not too clear. It was May 1978 when arrived back in India, but at this time I was not ready to commit completely to yoga. As a traveller I had heard of Goa and the parties at Christmas. This was a seed I needed to burn before I would be ready to start on my yogic journey. I liked surfing so I visited Shri Lanka to do it, then came back to India in October. I came just like a tourist, I left my bag in Mysore and went to Goa, went to many psychodelic parties, had fun. And on these parties you can hear "Boom Shiva!", some mentions of Shiva. After Goa I went to Gokarna, a place on Karnataka coast connected with Shiva, to celabrate Shivaratri, a festival for Shiva. It was like piligrimage, I walked all the coast from Goa to Gokarna like an Indian pilgrim. I stayed in Gokarna during Shivaratri and after I decided that I was now ready for yoga. I had finished the parties. I've been blessed by Shiva`s grace - and I went to Mysore, where was my bag. In the hotel I was staying I met other man - Cliff Barber. And he said: “come to see my teacher”, and it was Pattabhi Jois. And Jois said: “watch the class”. I watched. And after I asked: “how much is it?” He said: “100 dollars”. I said: “Oh, this is too much, Baba, make 75 dollars”. He said: “no”, and I said: “no”. But next day i came back and said: “I want to do this”. He said: “OK, for 75 dollars”. And I started. The reason ? - I had no idea, I knew nothing about yoga, it just was something inside me.

Ilya: So ashtanga vinyasa system was your first system of hatha yoga?

Mark: I did not know about other systems. Someone gave me the book of B.K.S. Iyengar "Light on yoga", but Iyengar system I did not know. My first teacher was Pattabhi Jois. That time were only few western students - there was was Cliff Barber, for us he was an old man, 48 years old, one German man, an English man with French lady, and myself. Joanne arrived one week later. Mostly the group was about 6 students. I stayed there 3 months.

Ilya: Some people who studied in the 70-s told me that before, students practiced both 1st and 2nd series during one class. Some people told that sequence was different.

Mark: At first we learned Surya Namaskara A, B, Padangushtasana, Padahastasana, Trikonasana, Parshvakonasana - and then Baddha Padmasana, Yoga Mudra and Utpluthi - this was first class. And my friend Old Cliff said: "Oh, he likes you - he gave you a lot of asanas". Next day I got one more posture, next day - one more. So maybe for one week I was given one posture per day, and after two more postures per week. In three months we completed Primary Series. After three month I went for holiday - my body was tired. After one month I came back - and I started Intermediate, it took two months. An every day I did Primary and Intermediate. An then we started Advanced postures. So it was Primary, Intermediate, Advanced every day. So I did three series daily, and after two years my practice was 3 and half hours. Joan was doing 4 and half hours, because she was standing one hour in Shirshasana.

Ilya: So you started visit Mysore every year?

Mark: We stayed two years in Mysore, than spend one year in Australia, than came back again for two years. And you asked about sequence - Advanced series was different. But also he made series specific for each person - I know Nancy Gilgoff practiced a different sequence. When Joanne was pregnant he gave me different postures, more strength, handstands variations - he also gave Joanne different postures. More postures focussing on hip openings and more meditative postures.

Ilya: Somebody told me that Hanumanasana was in Primary series

Mark: He gave it to Derek Ireland - Hanumanasana and Somakonasana, it was individual instruction, but Derek gave this to his students. So only his students did this. But he was advanced student. It was not given to beginners.

Ilya: Did you studied with T.K.V. Deshikachar?

Mark: Not studied, but i visited one workshop in Montreal, some things i picked up. The pranayama - I liked his approach on how to teach pranayama for beginners.

Ilya: Deshikachar also use some vinyasas but his approach is individualization of practice.

Mark: Yes, and he uses breath retention in asanas. For example in Paschimottanasana you bend 30 degree you exhale for one third, Hold this position and the breath, then you bend 30 degree more, exhale another one third, hold and then extend fully into the posture as you complete the exhalation, so he is doing holding the posture with breath retention during movement in or out of posture. Its interesting and hard. After ashtanga its very different. Same with people from other styles - they try ashtanga and find it hard, but after some time of practice, ashtanga becomes easier.

Ilya: I know the story about one man from Belgium, his name was Andre Van Lysebeth, he wrote the book about pranayama. some people said that he was first western student of Pattabhi Jois in 60-s.

Mark: Yes, i know about him. I dont think he was a long time student of Pattabhi Jois, but he did visited him.
Joan: Jois accept him because he could speak sanscrit and was an advanced student of yoga already.

Ilya: In his book we can see photo how he is sitting with Pattabhi Jois and Jois teaching him how to do jalandhara bandha. But seems he was studying only pranayama because in his book no one word about vinyasa system. He had studied with Swami Shivananda before. So, did Pattabhi Jois teach pranayama for advanced students in early years?

Mark Darby: In those years not even to advanced students. When some American advanced students wanted to study pranayama, Jois started to teach them. At that time we had studied with him for about 6 months. So he invited us also, I guess he felt we were ready. But in later years he was teaching pranayama only to advanced students, people who new third series. One time Sharath invited one student to come, he was not advanced but a long time student, and Guruji asked him - why you here? He said Sharath invited me, and Guruji had discussion with Sharath and said to the man: “You sit and watch”. So he did not practice and just watched.

Ilya: He was very strict in this.

Mark: Because it's difficult. When you do pranayama with strong retentions it can be dangerous. Body should be prepared and Pattabhi Jois said that when you do advanced series you should be ready to pranayama. I teach pranayams which I learn't from Deshikachar - its simple approach, simple pranayamas.

Ilya: When old-school students of 70-s and 80-s studied with P.Jois in Mysore, Krishnamacharya was still alive and was living in Madras (now Chennai). Do you know that time he is living and teaching in the next state or you did not have interest to meet him?

Mark: I knew about him because Pattabhi Jois one time visited him in Madras, and he went with an american student to see him. And he was able to visit Krishnamacharya. It was the first time that we had heard about him. But it was a long way from Mysore to Madras and that time we did not have much money for it. We were new to yoga, did not have so much information about Krishanmacharya. Now if I have the opportunity I`m sure I would go to see him. We knew only Pattabhi Jois and he did not speak English well, so we did not have long conversations about lineage. I don't think that Krishnamacharya himself spoke English. And at that time I think he was not teaching so much anymore. Maybe by then he was teaching yoga-therapy.

Ilya: You also practise kriya yoga of Lahiri Mahasai tradition - how you know about it.

Mark Darby: From russian yogis I received the information how to get the practice of this from Shailendra Sharma. Before for me term kriya yoga was cleansing practices, shatkarmas. We knew Yogananda`s book, Autobiography of Yogi, but we did not know the practice like the way Shailendra taught us.

Ilya: I think Yogananda`s organization is quite popular in US and Canada.

Mark: I don't like any big organisations and try to stay away from them, especially from American. In America most of such organisation become kind of "capitalistic religions". Its more business than coming from the heart. So I dont have so much interest to this American organisation but the book was good.
Joanne: When I was reading this book - I found it very interesting but there was nobody to teach us that technique.

Ilya: We have also Yogananda society in Russia but they dont teach so much practice of kriya yoga, some important things like khechari mudra etc. They sing spiritual songs, practicng simple pranayama without kumbhakas. Seems they lost original sequence of practice.

Joanne: It's too big organisation...

Mark: We feel very blessed that we met Shailendra. It was magic story - we were sitting in a restaurant in Moscow and talking with our workshop translator Katya, and she was saying that she is disciple of Shailendra Sharma. And one guy from next table came to us, he recognised me because he saw my video on youtube. He was interested to talk with us because he heard the name of Lahiri Mahasai who was founder of Shailendra's lineage. This man was also disciple of Shailendra. We talked about yoga practice, and when he was leaving he said - I want to give you a gift from my Guru, and he gave us Bhagavad Gita with commentaries by Shailendra. For us it was a sign - we have to go and see Shailendra.

Ilya: I`m traveling in India from 2001, studied in different yoga schools, but i never met a man who can teach how to perform khechari mudra and some advanced level of yoga practice, till i met Shri Shailendra. Some teachers can give yoga-therapy, some - advanced asanas but not more. I was also very surprised than in 2005 i recieved kriya from him.

Mark: This technique is a gift which we got from Shailendra. You receive it and practice it - same in ashtanga also, you have a techinque that you have to work on. If you dont work - nothing happens.

Ilya: What I see looking to old-school ashtanga guys, like you or Swenson, or Freeman, or Corigliano - from my experience every teacher has his own approach, all of them teaching the same series but with own vision how to practice, own hints. What do you think about it.

Mark: First it should be your own practice. Pattabhi Jois said to us - you practice what I teach you for 20 years - after you can change something.
Joanne: It takes many years. 12 or 20, usually indians like sacred number of 12 years.

Mark: First you start asana practice more like gymnastic, stretching, then you start to realize - it becomes more powerful, more subtle. You discover different things. The same in martial arts - first you do like physical exersices, after you start to feel the motion of energy. So after just performing yoga posture you start to feel deeper what you are doing and you have experienced and things come up. I`m keeping the ashtanga system but put my own interpretation. An then I`ll go back and understand my interpretation and remember what Pattabhi Jois said - its the same thing! He said but we did not understand. When you do it for long time, you understand what he said.

Joanne: I think it also depends from experience. Darby was very intense, like Misha Baranov, but very brutal sometimes. He injured his knee, injured his back, and from experience he understand that its better to have a more gentle approach.

Mark: Now I keep more slow rhythm in practice. More softness in shoulders and neck, more emphasis on bandhas. I feel good after practice.

Ilya: On your workshops you are talking about opening, relaxation, flow of energy - for me it looks close to systems like taichi.

Mark: We studied taichi in Canada for about one year. Our teacher said "first you move your limbs, then you realize the movement connects to your core. After you move your limbs from the core”. Its the same thing with Yoga. Now we practice Kriya - no time for taichi.

Ilya: During your first class you gave very detailed description of each asana and I think about some influence of Iyengar yoga.

Mark: For sure some Iyengar yoga. Alinement its important but not only this. You have to use energy also.

Joanne: We have a friend who is Iyengar`s Yoga teacher. Sometimes Darby and him used to work together, exchange their knowledge. In old days there was a big battle - if you are an Iyengar`s yoga student - you don't practice with Ashtanga people, and vice versa. But now most practitioners understand - you need some alightenment but you need also the flow. It's two different systems but from one source.

Ilya: In modern times so many different yoga schools and yoga brands…

Mark: Too many!

Ilya: What do you think - its good, bad or just its our times and we should just accept it?

Mark: I think you should go back to tradition as much as you can. It's been in India for thousands of years. Today we have so many approaches - personally I think most of them are commercial. Of course every person who does yoga for long time has his own approach. I teach you my practice, it works for me, maybe it doesn't work for you. But if you say "This is the only way" - it's wrong. I don't think that ashtanga is the only way. Everebody is different, people have different bodies. Even inside ashtanga it can be different approaches depending on the body of the student.

Joanne: When Pattabhi Jois was teaching western students he was very tough, but when he taught Indians he was so soft, never pushed them. They could do only what they wanted, they would talk all - it was kind of a social club.

Ilya: I think because that students were just lazy. I think his western students mostly had warrior minds, the qualities of kshatriya, that's why he gave very hard practice to them.
Joan: Yes.

Mark: Because also only westerners in that time wanted to do yoga. Indians wanted to have modern education, to find job. Pattabhi Jois could push you and next day you come again and he would again push you and you leave only after 3 months to take rest from it. Very hard. In the west I dont think it's possible to teach like this. I remember I was given blessings by Pattabhi Jois to assist him. I remember one time I was adjusting an Indian the same way that Guruji adjusted me and he said: “no, no, don`t touch”. But If we adjusted in a very hard manner and people had to work, they would stop coming. I remember one time in

Australia I met with Shandor Remete because after two years I developed a very strong practice and we got to meet very quickly and he was leaving to India to stydy with B.K.S. Iyengar so he asked me to look after his school for one month. I had 30 students and after one month - 4. Because I was teaching the same way as Jois and people just did not come back. In 1980, when Pattabhi Jois went to America he asked me to

Mark Darby

teach his Indian students in his shala. It was a great honour, but at the time I did'nt realise it. He also had one of his senior student teaching, so there was not much for me to do. There was a race between us who was going to adjust. So after a few days we went to Kodailkanal until Pattabhi Jois returned.

Ilya: Shandor was teaching Iyengar style that time?

Mark: Yes, he was very much into Iyengar.

Ilya: But later he completely changed his approach. Also from his own experience.

Mark: Yes, from his own experience as well. He got into martial arts. He was working with energy, trying to bring energy and keep it flowing. He has a lot martial arts coming into his practice from what I can see.

Ilya: That’s very interesting. Even before you told that in India there were different schools, lineages but they have one thing in common - they were following traditional yoga philosophy, Yoga Sutras. Maybe they had different techniques but philosophical part, the main thing like to realize your soul, your Atman was the main goal for them.
Mark: Yes, yes.

Ilya: But what we see in the West a lot of “yoga brands” they don’t talk about this. They are only trying to sell some techniques, like fitness.

Mark: Well, ten years ago or may be a little bit more in the West it was very much fitness, yoga in health clubs. Suddenly yoga became a place where you get healthy. But I think people felt something else. There were not just running and doing aerobics they were doing yoga with … insights, some emotional things were happening, whether they understood or not. Now people are looking much more for meditation, and inner growth. Nowadays it has become much more easier to bring meditation techniques into a class, whereas a few years ago it was difficult, people just wanted “to do” physical yoga. But now they are looking for a deeper thing. They want more philosophy, to understand more and yet a lot just come to health class to look good. But it is still good, people are still going to learn yoga and those who want, they will progress in a more spiritual way.

Joanne: I don’t know about Russia but in America, the people who are interested more in philosophy, they would go towards Buddhism. Buddhism seems to attract them more, they don’t want to do a lot of asanas.

Ilya: Why do you think they took Buddhist philosophy and not Indian philosophy?

Joanne: Because Indian philosophy is very complicated. Buddhism is easy, there are rules which are structured and easy to follow. As Indian philosophy you can spend years and years of reading and studying to understand what its all about. It is very complex for a western mind to understand all these thousands of gods and thousands of different stories.

Ilya: But also I think it is because there is a system of Buddhist centres where you can come and get some practice, to do some workshop or retreat, like 10 days vipassana course. Whereas in Indian tradition there are a lot of schools which differ from each other, sometimes have contradiction, like Hare Krishna bhakti and Advaita Vedanta. It is not so systematic.
Joanne: Yes.

Mark: And I think to study and understand Indian philosophy you have to go to Indian community and Indian community is very closed. To get into the community you have to speak their language Hindi, Tamil… So its more difficult to learn Indian tradition in the West. But we have yoga asanas, that’s what most people want and thats how they connect to their mind. We make a living by teaching yoga asana. That’s how we survive and it gives us the time and the financial support for us to go into deeper practices.

Joanne: Yes, but even then, once they start their yoga practice, they start to read a little bit about it, a little bit philosophy and then it grows. Of course its not something that will happen overnight.

Mark: When we teach intensive yoga training, we introduce philosophy and then they want more. I give them homework and they are happy to read and learn more.

Joanne: Not so long time ago in America or Russia there were not so many books about Sutras but now in the internet you can find anything you want.

Ilya: Yes, before in Russia it was only academic books.

Joanne: Yes, very difficult to read and you had to be studying Hindu philosophy or Eastern philosophy to understand, whereas now it is very open.

Ilya: This is very interesting, because in the 70-s people hardly new anything even about Ashtanga vinyasa yoga, it was not a popular style.

Mark: Yes, Ashtanga didn`t get popular until the end of the 90-s.

Ilya: I think that first Power Yoga became popular as a kind of fitness style, sort of simplified Ashtanga Yoga.

Mark: Well, yes, Power Yoga was based on Ashtanga Yoga, Beryl Birch book of Ashtanga yoga, which was a book with Primary series. Because of the word Power people got interested, people realized they could get a good body through yoga, they could run better, because Power Yoga was made for runners. It got popular in California, and from there spread around. Madonna did it, but afterwards people realized that it was very hard, too difficult for people who only did yoga one or two times a week. Then came Vinyasa Flow which left out the more difficult postures, added posture from anywhere with many variations and later all other different things came out. Different people, John Friend for example spread vinyasa flow mixed with Iyengar system, he was friends with Richard Freeman who knew the ashtanga system and so they mixed and matched. Now the most popular Yoga is vinyasa flow, where people could do what they want, they can do advanced postures if they want. People in the West or I guess everywhere want variety. I want to do this posture or that, I want to do posture from the third series, but if I'm doing only primary series I will never learn that posture…

Ilya: Bikram yoga is now coming to Russia.

Joanne: It is very popular in America.

Ilya: It looks like commercial system, like McDonald`s.

Mark: And then you have Hot Yoga, which is a vinyasa flow done in a hot room, but they don`t follow the Bikram system, because someone who wanted to do Bikram yoga didn`t want to pay franchise. He took the idea of the hot room and teaches whatever yoga he wants, vinyasa flow, Hatha, anything and does it in a hot room. This is the most popular yoga now in Canada, partly because the weather is very cold in the winter and because people want to lose weight.

Ilya: Some people start from fitness type of yoga and later develop deeper interest in yoga and philosophy. They turn to more traditional schools.

Mark: Yes, many students start in health clubs but then they realize this isn`t really yoga and they come to yoga centres and are surprised to find that yoga there is with a different approach. In health club you get good air conditioning but in yoga centres atmosphere is different- Indian music is playing, incenses, different feeling.

Ilya: You are running your own TTC in Montreal?

Mark: Yes, im doing it together with my son Shankara.

Ilya: And which subjects do you teach except ashtanga series?

Mark: We are basing on ashtanga system but teaching the postures in a very detailed manner. We are also teaching philosophy, Ayurveda course, anatomy. We have a broad range but not so advanced, say Ayurveda is 6 hours, introduction only. For instance, when we are teaching we work with anatomy, but we don’t give names of muscles and bones, we work with biomechanics - system showing how the body is all

Mark Darby

connected, how the body moves with connections. It is a one year programme 200 hours, 1 weekend a month and then we do 1 week intensive in the summer. We also encourage our students to come and practice Mysore style and we give them very cheap price for a year, so that they can come and practice. The idea is to give students an opportunity to practice as much as possible during the year. And we see a great difference after one year between people who just came for the course and those who practiced Mysore style.

Ilya: What language are you teaching classes in Montreal - French or English?

Joanne: English. Darby is English-speaking.

Ilya: My next question concerns the length of ujaii breath during ashtanga practice. When we visited David

Swenson`s workshop Baranov and I were instructed to shorten our breaths, since our pranayama practices increased lung capacity and our breathes were longer compared to other students. He also told us not to hold one posture more than for 5 breaths, but you`v told that before it was 8 breaths for each asana. Do you think that it is due to the number of students in class and time limit that counting became faster?

Mark: Yes, a lot of students come and time is limited.

Ilya: Then what is your opinion about individual practice? Is it possible to hold a posture more than 8 breaths and make breaths as long as possible?

Mark: Yes, and when David studied it was also 8 breaths. I don’t think there are any rules, if you want to make breaths longer you can, but there is such thing as vinyasa, and vinyasa becomes a movement which takes energy, and because of that we breathe faster, we need oxygen and then the breath during vinyasa become quicker, so you generally need to keep same rhythm in your postures. So that you don’t speed up to

Mark Darby

do the vinyasa and then slow down. So, I generally work with my vinyasa, but some days my breath is longer than in others, but some days I`m rushed because I don’t have time. I can make a very strong practice in one and a half hours and I can make it in 2 hours by making my breath longer. There is nothing wrong about it, but you have to keep the rhythm.

Ilya: You`ve told us before that Joanne was practicing one hour of shirshasana. Was it advice of Pattabhi Jois?

Joanne: Yes. He trained me to do that. Every day he would come and lift me up, slowly increasing amount of breaths - 10, 15 breaths; 5 minutes, 10, 15, 30... And I would only come down after he would come and lift me up. I was too weak to lift myself up and so he was teaching me how to lift up. I would wait for him to come and adjust me to come down. One time he forgot about me, he left and talked to his family, made phone calls. So, when he came back, there was no one in the room and I have been standing an hour in shirshasana. And he said: oh very good, now you do one hour every day. But he trained me to stay there for 1 hour so that I could do it by myself. But shirshasana is a special posture, it has a lot to do with nervous system. When I came to Mysore in 2001 and met with Guruji I asked him why made me to stand 1 hour in shirshasana, what were the benefits? And he answered: “You tell me, what are the benefits for you”.

Mark: Going back to the breath, if you see Jois teaching, in a way he teaches standing postures are slow, the breath is very long, when he comes to do the primary series it gets fast. And then it gets very slow again when it comes to finishing postures, because there is no vinyasa in standing and finishing postures so he makes the breaths longer. But as long as you have full breath and rhythm it doesn’t matter how long you breath.

Ilya: Not all postures in ashtanga are well compensated and when a beginner comes into this practice mostly for them the weak points are knees and low back. Why no one has ever changed the sequence to make it more balanced?

Mark: Its not the problem with the astanga system but with the individuals learning and the person teaching. In the west we do not have the same flexibility as in East. Too many chairs so the ability of movement in the hips is restricted which affects the knees.In the west we teach ashtanga to quickly, In Mysore there was no led classes, only Mysore style. You went 6 days a week and committed to 3 months of practice. Postures were given slowly. It took 3 months to learn primary series. This way the body has time to develop strength,especially in the core ( bandhas). Also many teachesr do not understand the alignment of the body and how the repetition of the vinyasa places strain on the body and nervous system. Ashtanga done well will be your best friend, ashtanga done incorrectly will be your worst enemy. We didn’t do revolving standing postures as beginners. We did trikonasana, no revolving trikonasana, parshvokonasana but no parivritta parshvokonasana, we didn’t do utkattasana and no virabhadrasana series as beginners. So, when you became advanced practitioner afterwards you put them in the standing postures. Why Pattabhi Jois changed this? Usually when students practice they copy teacher, and when beginners see advanced student doing most postures then they would put them in. So when they go to Mysore they didn’t learn from Guruji but from some students of Guruji in the west, so when they come to Mysore they`d be doing postures already, so he`d just let them do. Before, he never used to teach parshvokonasana, reversed parshvokonasana. If you look at Lino`s book, its not Sharath, its Lino is doing this posture. If you look the video of Guruji teaching in 1990 Richard Freeman, Tim Miller, Chuck Miller, he doesn’t have this reversed parshvokonasana, he only put this after 2000. And then I think he just gave up. See, if you are a teacher and you don’t want beginners to do this posture but they are still doing it after some time you give up and let them do what they want. So I think this is what happened to Pattabhi Jois.

Ilya: Individual approach is very important when working with beginners.

Mark: Yes, of course. Bodies are different, bone shapes. Many have no body awareness and some people come only once a week, so there is no need to push hard on someone who comes that rare.


Website of Mark & Joanne Darby Sattva Yoga Shala in Montreal, Canada sattvayogashala.com

Shri K. Pattabhi Jois (Guruji)

http://kpjayi.org/biographies/k-pattabhi-jois

Childhood

Yogacharaya Shri K. Pattabhi Jois (Guruji) was born on the full moon of July 1915, in Kowshika, a small hamlet located 150 kilometers from Mysore in the southern state of Karnataka. His father was an astrologer and a priest in the village of nearly seventy families. Guruji was the middle of nine children, and from the age of five, like most Brahmin boys, began to study the Vedas and Hindu rituals. At 12, he attended a yoga demonstration at his middle school that inspired him to learn more about the ancient practice. He was so

excited about this new discovery, he arose early the next morning to meet the impressive yogi he had seen, Sri T. Krishnamacharya, one of the most distinguished yogis of the 20th Century.

After questioning Guruji, Krishnamcharya agreed to take him on as his student, and for the next two years, unbeknownst to his family, Guruji practiced under the great yogi’s strict and demanding tutelage every day before school, walking five kilometers early in the morning to reach Krishnamacharya’s house. He was ambitious in his studies and driven to expand his knowledge of yoga. When he would read the Ramayana and other holy books on the veranda of his house, his family members would say, “Oh, look at the great pundit. Why are you wasting your time with books? Go tend to the cows!”

Mysore

When Guruji turned fourteen, he was given the Brahmin thread initiation – the ceremony in which a Brahmin boy becomes a man and is initiated into the spiritual life. Soon after the significant ceremony, and with two rupees in his pocket, Guruji secretly ran away from home to seek Sanskrit study at the Sanskrit University of Mysore. After getting off the train, he went straight to the admissions department, showed his thread as proof of being Brahmin [this would gain him free admission], and was accepted to the school. He dutifully attended classes and his studies, and continued his yoga practice, even giving demonstrations that secured him food privileges at the university mess. With little money, life in the beginning was difficult for Guruji, who also begged for food at Brahmin houses. It was three years before he wrote to his father to tell him where he was and what he was doing.

In 1932, he attended a yoga demonstration at the university and was pleased to discover that the yogi on stage was his guru, Sri Krishnamacharya. Having lost touched after Guruji left Kowshika, they recommenced their relationship in Mysore, which lasted twenty-five years.

The Maharaja

During this time, Mysore’s Maharaja, Sri Krishna Rajendra Wodeyar, fell suddenly ill. Informed of a remarkable yogi who might help him where all others had failed, he sent for Krishnamacharya, who cured him through yoga. In gratitude, the Maharaja established a Yoga shala for him on the palace grounds, and sent him, along with model students like Guruji, around the country to perform demonstrations, study texts, and research other yoga schools and styles. Some one hundred students were schooled at the palace yoga shala.

The Maharaja was especially fond of Guruji and would call him to the palace at four in the morning to perform yoga demonstrations. In 1937, he ordered Guruji to teach yoga at the Sanskrit University, in spite of

his desires to remain a student. Guruji established its first yoga department, which he directed until his retirement in 1973. The department was permanently closed after that.

The Maharajah died in 1940, bringing an end to Krishnamacharya’s long patronage. By the time the esteemed teacher left for Madras in 1954, he had only three remaining, very dedicated students: Guruji, his friend C. Mahadev Bhatt, and Keshavamurthy. Guruji was the only one who considered teaching his life’s work, and carried on Krishnamacharya’s legacy in Mysore.

Family

While Guruji was studying with Krishnamacharya, a young and strong-willed girl began to attend his yoga demonstrations at the Sanskrit University, accompanied by her father, a Sanskrit scholar. One day, after one of the demonstrations, Savitramma, who was only fourteen at the time, announced to her father, “I want that man in marriage.” Agreeably, her father approached the 18-year-old Guruji and invited him to their home in the village of Nanjangud, twenty kilometers away. Guruji respectably accepted. After learning more about the young yogi and his Brahmin and family background, Savitramma’s father agreed to the union, as did Guruji’s father despite the couple’s horoscope report of unsuitability. “Suitable or not, I want to marry him,” declared Savitramma, who later came to be affectionately known as Amma [mother]. They were married that year in a love match on the fourth day after the full moon of June 1933, Amma’s birthday.

After the wedding, Amma returned to her family and Guruji to his room at the University. They didn’t see each other for three to four years, until 1940, when Amma joined her husband in Mysore to begin their life

together. They had three children – Manju, Saraswathi and Ramesh – each who became great yoga teachers themselves. Amma was Guruji’s first yoga student, and was also given a teaching certificate by Krishnamacharya. Amma was like a mother to Guruji’s students, both Western and Indian; her presence cherished as much as his. She was kind and loving, always ready with an invite for coffee or an encouraging word. Because she was also well-versed in Sanskrit, she was often nearby to correct Guruji’s mistakes or remind him of a forgotten Sanskrit verse – much to the amusement of all present. She passed away suddenly in 1997. Her loss was devastating to the entire family, as well as to the family of yoga students.

Teaching

Life during the early years was not easy. Although Guruji had a yoga teaching position at the Sanskrit University, his ten-rupee-a-month salary was barely adequate to maintain a family of five. [Their circumstances eased somewhat in the mid-fifties when he became a professor.] In 1948, Guruji established the Ashtanga Yoga Research Institute in their tiny two-room home in Lakshmipuram with a view toward experimenting with the curative aspects of yoga. Many local officials, from police chiefs to constables and doctors, practiced with him. Local physicians even sent their patients to Guruji to help with the treatment of diabetes, heart and blood pressure problems and a variety of other ailments.

In 1964, Guruji added an extension to the back of his house, consisting of a yoga hall that held twelve students, and a resting room upstairs. That same year, a Belgian named Andre van Lysbeth arrived at the AYRI on the recommendation of Swami Purnananda, a former student of Guruji’s. For two months, Guruji

taught this foreigner the primary and intermediate asanas. Soon after, Van Lysbeth wrote a book called Pranayama in which Guruji’s photo appeared, and introduced the Ashtanga master to the Europeans. They eventually became the first Westerners to seek him out and study in Mysore. Americans followed soon after in 1971.

Guruji had already traveled widely in India with Krishnamacharya and with Amma, meeting yogis, debating with scholars and giving yoga demonstrations. He met with Swami Sivananda, and the Shankaracharya of Kanchipuram, and befriended Swami Kulyananda and Swami Gitananda, both renowned for their scientific research in yoga. Guruji’s ashtanga had extended throughout India, but didn’t reach the overseas community until 1973 (the very same year he retired from the Sanskrit University), when he was invited to Sao Paulo, Brazil. The following year he went to Encinitas, California, the first of many teaching trips abroad, including France, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, England and Australia.

Over the next twenty years, word of Pattabhi Jois and ashtanga yoga slowly spread across the globe, and the number of students coming to Mysore steadily increased. In 1998, Guruji shifted his residence to Gokulam, a suburb of Mysore, but continued teaching from the Lakshmipuram institute. By then, he was receiving more international students than the small room could handle, so he began construction of a much larger hall, just opposite his house in Gokulam. The new shala officially opened in 2002, with several days of pujas and ceremonies. Four years later, his dream of opening a school in the United States was realized with the launch of an institute in Islamorada, Florida. Guruji conducted the opening ceremonies there in 2006, which served as his final trip abroad.

The Passing of the Lineage

In 2007, Guruji became gravely ill, bouncing back just enough to teach a bit more yoga. By the end of the following year, after seven decades of continuous teaching, he had gradually retired from his daily classes, leaving the institute in the capable hands of his daughter Saraswathi and grandson Sharath.

Guruji passed away at home in Mysore on May 18th, 2009 at the age of 93. His death came as a tragic loss

to the worldwide yoga community. His entire life was an endeavor to imbue his students with commitment, consistency and integrity – and to actualize in his own life the conduct of a householder yogi. It is by virtue of his undying faith and enthusiasm that the practice that he learned from Krishnamacharya has remained alive. And thus, by his devotion to the daily teaching of yoga, his legendary works will remain alive too.

interview with David Swenson "how it all began..." wildyogi.com

Hot July 2010, David Swenson visits Moscow for the first time. Those were unforgettable seven days. A seminar in Moscow was the teacher’s training for Ashtanga Vinyasa instructors. It lasted from Monday to Sunday and was a cheerful mix of practical instructions, vigorous enthusiasm, performance of asanas with a partner, live dialogue, and, of course, a fair quantity of yogic humor.

From the very beginning it was amazing how David does all his best in classes, he managed to make the seminar very sated and humanly warm. Intensive information and exercises were alternated by laughter and

jokes. David shared his long-term experience in correcting asanas of the first series of Ashtanga, he was showing techniques, checking quality of asanas and sometimes asked students to correct himself, remarkably simulating “a clumsy beginner” to the general joy.



Ilya Zhuravlev: The first question is traditional, but the answer is always interesting to know. How did you start to practice yoga?



David: My elder brother Doug introduced me to yoga. He found it in America. Do you remember, once, we have been talking about books, which inspired people in early years, books like “Autobiography of a Yogi” by Yogananda? My brother Doug was surfing near the beach below ashram of “Self-realization Fellowship”, the one originating from Paramahamsa Yogananda. Many guys called that surfing spot “Swamis” because there were many swamis living in that ashram on the top of the cliff, above the beach. And, after surfing, my brother could see these guys doing yoga, meditation, and things like that. So he became interested in the idea of yoga, healthy food and similar things. Then, he came back to Texas with all these ideas. He is my big brother, so I have always wanted to be like him. I started doing yoga and started to grow my hair long.



At that time, there were no yoga studios. There were no yoga clothes, there were no yoga mats. There was just yoga. And if you were lucky, you could find a book. We found books written by Americans. Those were “Yoga, Youth and Reincarnation” by Jess Stearn and “Yoga: 28 day exercise plan” by Richard

Doug Swenson / Laurie Swenson / David Swenson

Hittleman. Then, Swami Satchitananda came out with his book called “Integral yoga” and B.K.S. Iyengar with “Light on Yoga”.



With my brother we practiced outdoors under the trees. Usually we had karate-like pants made of white cotton. Or sometimes we put on little Speedo like bathing suits, as if we were doing swimming. And we would go into a park and put down a towel under a tree and did asanas from yoga books.



All this was in Texas, you need to remember this. One day my brother and I were in the park doing yoga. Suddenly, we heard approaching police car siren, the police ran to us and harshly asked what we were doing. We told them we were breathing and stretching, and kindly asked them not to shoot us. As they explained then, some people from the neighborhood had called them saying: “There are some hippies worshiping the Devil in the park!” At that time both of us had long hair, and on that day we were under a tree doing strange movements. This incident did not make us worried, we continued doing yoga.



n high school I was still growing my hair long. This was an average kind of school, not a private or a privileged one. School administrators, who were very conservative people, told me that “boys cannot have long hair”. I was thirteen and there were four years of studies ahead. Luckily, my father was a Defense Attorney, a lawyer, and after that message he went to the board of the school to give advocacy presentation to them. He explained them that “Jesus had long hair, Moses had long hair, Einstein had long hair and the Founding Fathers of America - they all had long hair! So my sons are in good company. I will not force them to cut their hair”. But still, for three years, I was carrying a wig with short hair in my pocket to put it on in case I see the Principal. My hair was hanging out from the back while the wig was on the top and they could not understand what was happening in fact. I became a vegetarian, I was doing yoga, I was growing my hair long, - and once one of my teachers looked at me and told me: “Boy, you seem like a pretty nice fellow to me, but I heard you are a communist!” But this is only the way they were thinking and this is what never bothered me.



I loved my parents, and after three years of studies, I wrote a letter to them: “Dearest mother and father, I

David Swenson and Doug Swenson 

love you. But I cannot go for one more year to this crazy school. I am leaving home. I am sixteen years old and I go away by myself”. I went to California which was 1500 miles away from Texas; my parents were very upset and worried. But at the end they acknowledged that they have raised their children to be independent thinking people, and did not force me to come home. Together, we agreed that I have to finish school and have to be able to support myself, because, if I wanted to live by myself, they would not send me money. At that time I was already working and supporting myself, so that was not an issue.



When I came to a new school in California, I was told that as I was only sixteen years old I needed to bring an adult who would be legally responsible for me, otherwise they could not accept me. This was a little bit of a problem, but then I found whom to ask for this. I asked the manager of my very cheap rented apartment, Rudy Olivares from Mexico, who was twenty two years old and also was a surfer. He signed everything and I went to school. That was the school that I had never experienced before. There, I had art classes, surfing classes, music classes. This was great, I liked that school. Once, I missed some days at school and they called my “legal guardian”, Rudy Olivares, to ask if everything was alright with me. And he answered: “Oh, well… well…David is sick… he is really sick... maybe he’s gonna die soon…” I was really enjoying that school.

Another day, my friend told me about some other yoga classes. In the early morning hours I came up a long path of wooden steps to an old church, opened the door, looked in - and thought that walls were breathing. But those were not the walls, but the people who were doing yoga like I had never seen before. I could hear the sound of their breathing, they were moving in a flow. That was a class of Ashtanga yoga, and I had never seen Ashtanga before that time. I was astonished. There was no heating in the room, early morning, and sun was coming through the window. I was watching people in downward dog and the steam was rising from

Pattabhi Jois, Nancy Gilgoff, Brad Ramsay, Paul Danaway, Sally Woker, David Swenson, David Williams. Encinitas, California, 1975

their buttocks. That was terrific. There was a hippie couple, walking around, teaching the class. One of them came up to me, from his accent I could hear that he was from North Carolina, and he said: “Haaai, Maaay naaame is Daaavid”. Those were David Williams and Nancy Gilgoff.



David is one of the first Americans ever to study Ashtanga. He went to India in 1970 with Norman Allen, and traveled all over India, staying in ashrams. Once, they saw Pattabhi Jois's son, Manju, doing a yoga demonstration in an ashram and it blew their mind. So, then David started to go to Mysore to study and later came back to California to teach.

The first day he taught me Surya Namaskar A, Surya Namaskar B and the final sequence postures. I was tired, my body was hot, and when I laid down in Shavasana, I looked up and saw the steam. That was so unforgettable. Something special was happening to me.



Those were very joyful people. The people doing yoga around that time were all just hippies. And it was fun to be with them. In 1975, David and Nancy brought Pattabhi Jois to America for the first time. David and Nancy explained who was coming to us, so that we were ready to give him respect. Pattabhi Jois arrived

Sri K Pattabhi Jois and David Williams

with his son, Manju. At that time Pattabhi Jois was nearly sixty years old and Manju was nearly thirty. Pattabhi Jois spoke English very little then.



When Pattabhi Jois came, he began to introduce his son and said: “This is my son, Swamiji” Manju looked at his father and said in proper English: ”I’m not Swamiji. My name is Manju and we came here to break your backs”. He was small like Micky Mouse, but very strong, he could walk up the whole flight of stairs on his hands. That time they stayed in America for four months and all this time they were teaching us. And we really had no idea what we were doing, but we loved it.

Pattabhi Jois liked it as well, because there were a lot of young energetic students, while in India nobody wants to do yoga. Young Indians want to be engineers, doctors, lawyers, and we just wanted to be yogis. And he thought that was great.



During that long stay of Pattabhi Jois I was involved in one project for my school. I got David Williams to come with me to an elementary school and do a yoga demonstration there. We did that for children that were six-eight years old. When I was a little boy, there were no hippies coming to my school and doing yoga demonstrations. And in 1975 there was David Williams and me doing this.



So, Pattabhi Jois stayed for several months and during this time some interesting things happened. It is difficult to explain because some events had specifically American character. That state of America where we were, California, is located very close to Mexico.



A lot of people from Mexico come to America and stay. Many come illegally. That was year 1975 and the police in California thought that anyone who had brown skin was an illegal from Mexico. One day we were driving home from our yoga class. We looked like typical hippies. Our car was old, there were surfboards on its top, and Pattabhi Jois was sitting in the back seat. Suddenly the police approached us, and took us to the side of the road. They looked in and saw a man with a very dark skin and asked politely: ”Have you come here illegally from Mexico?” Pattabhi Jois smiled and said: “Yes, Mexico, very good!” We tried to explain that he is not from Mexico, but Pattabhi Jois was repeating all the time: ”Yes, yes, Mexico”. It continued for a few minutes. We were lucky that time. The police finally realized that as hippies we were not even nearly organized enough to do anything like illegal border crossing and they let us go.



Then, Pattabhi Jois went back to India and his son Manju stayed in America. Manju decided that he did not want to go back to India. One of the students marry him, and he could reside in America. And Pattabhi Jois had to go home and explain to his wife why their son stayed in America. I think his wife was not very happy to hear that.



It happened that after Pattabhi Jois left to India I returned to Texas again. Soon David Williams called me from Hawaii and offered to come and teach all of his classes. David wanted to go to India again. That was in 1976. I went to Hawaii to teach his classes.

We used to do yoga in a park there. Usually I taught for donations but not a fixed rate. And before leaving David told me that things are not very good with those donations. Students were mainly hippies with no money. There was a basket for donations. I have a class for many students and after classes I look into a basket and see one mango, one banana, and one half of a joint in it. I needed money a lot but they were leaving me just this.

And then some guy offered me to teach at his place. But there was no yoga room and we built it ourselves. We had no money. We’ve built a yoga room but the floor was ground and dirty. Later we put a carpet over it. There were many hotels at Hawaii, and when a hotel has remodeling, they throw away old carpets. We decided it could be a great yoga room floor! We cut rolled carpet into smaller pieces to make yoga mats. We built a room with eighth walls. Four walls were made of wood, where one could practice hand stands. The other four walls were made of screen to keep the bugs out. We cut down a small tree and put it in the middle of the room. It was supposed to be the central column for our roof but there was no roof because there was no money.



We started to think what the roof might be made of. We took clear plastic and stapled it onto the roof. The roof was transparent and it was in a Hawaii city called Lahaina, which means a place with relentless sun. In a result we’ve got a yoga room with a clear plastic roof in a place called “Forever the sun!” Unless you went in really early, it was so hot. Now, when I hear in a class someone saying it is hot, I understand that it is not hot, it is even chilly. The floor was made of dirt; every time you jump back your feet hit that kind of a floor. There was fourty or fifty people coming everyday day for practice. Every day we had to roll down the carpet. Then, we filled in the holes in the ground, raked the dirt, and then put the floor back.



It was a great time. Every one leaved in tree houses. By the time David went to India, I had learned up the 3rd and 4th series of Ashtanga (in America they call it Advanced A&B). David Williams used to interview people who came for classes for the first time. Usually people just came and said that they would like to do yoga. And he said: “No you don’t.” A person would insist that he wants to practice. David would tell them: ”No, yoga is not for everyone, it is very difficult. I want you to think this decision through very carefully,

David Swenson 

before starting yoga. When you start yoga, it would mess up your whole life, because it would make you feel good. It may happen so that your wife or your partner do not do yoga, while yoga becomes very important to you. Yoga could ruin your relationships. When you start yoga you could probably quit your job and go to Mysore. This is why please think before starting to do yoga!” By the end of such speech people were giving him money and saying: ”We definitely want to do yoga.” Probably, for yoga studios promotion a sign should be put up saying: “You are prohibited to do yoga.”



Well, David Williams went to India, and I stayed as a senior. One of my students came to me once. He said that he likes my classes very much. “In a word, I have no money, but I would like a lot to continue to practice” - added the guy. And I told him: “Sure, no problem, come for classes”. Probably, in hot Hawaiian air information extends especially quickly - in two weeks everyone stopped paying. More and more people were coming for classes, but there were no money at all. Then I have decided that I need to find a job because financial issues were going absolutely bad. And I started to look for job.

I should tell you that Hawaii is such a place where basically it is not accepted to work. After many attempts, I found a guy who had a store of healthy food. The store was called: “Mr. Proper Food”. The guy was not absolutely proper - he was a drug addict. He told me that he had problems with the law in New York. He urgently should start doing something legal and consequently he has opened this store of healthy food. I came to him to know whether there is a job, and passed through the shortest interview in my life: “What is your name, guy?” I told him: “David”. He said: “ОК, you are hired, David”. I was hired at once. I was very much surprised, why he gave me a job right after I told my name. The trick is that in Hawaii party-goers have some type of names like “Star Child” or “Fiery Rain”… Well, the director of the store decided that as my name is just “David”, instead of somehow else, I would at least come to work.



I started to work, to earn money. Not a lot, of course, but sufficient for living. Then David and Nancy came back. And I decided when they return, I will go to Maysor. But I had not enough money for that.

I have borrowed money from one person. When David and Nancy came back, I told them, that the good news is that there are many people coming to classes, and the bad news is that no one pays money. David and Nancy said: “It is fine, no difference”, and the next day everyone again started to pay money. Later I have realized that people said that they have no money for yoga and at the same time they went for rock-concerts and did not refuse themselves in whatever.



t was 1977 and I left for Maysor. When I arrived there Pattabhi Jois had only two students besides me. Pattabhi Jois was sixty, but he was like a teenager. He was full of energy, but there were only three of us... And he was teaching us as though there were twenty of us. Every day he gave us three, four or five new asanas. Once he has decided what it is not enough to practice once a day and we began to practice twice a day. Then we have started to do the 1st and the 2d levels in the morning and the 1st, 3d and 4th levels in the evening. And we did everything he said. We came home, ate, slept, and then again went for classes. Then he has added one hour of pranayamas. Then he has started to teach us shatkarmas.



He was showing just two - nauli and neti. Traditionally neti is made of three weaved cotton strings, its tips are dipped in wax and after that the lace is inserted into a nose and is pulled out from a mouth. In general, it is not a funny procedure. Rubber tubes with wax ends were used sometimes. When it reached the wax end, it felt like a bicycle chain in a nose.



Once we have told Guruji that we want to do everything according to the rules, with a rubber tube. Then he asked us to find a tube from a bicycle pump. He sent us to a bicycle shop, and there we bought tubes for bicycle pumps. They were very dirty. For three days we were boiling tubes from the pumps. Then Guruji did neti for us himself.



We loved Guruji very much and allowed him to do with us everything. We were like dogs for experiments. In old yoga shala there was a small sink at the steps. We were standing next to the sink; he inserted a tube into one’s nose, pushed it to the throat, and then accurately with two fingers pulled it out of the mouth. Standing with a tube in his hands, he used to say in a terrible voice: “Next!” We tried to explain that an individual tube is needed for everyone, but he did not listen to us. Once he was pushing a tube into a nose, it was going further and further... but it was not coming out. Then Guruji said: “Something wrong is here” – and took the tube out. The second attempt failed, and the tube came out of a mouth only from the third attempt.



It has lasted for four months. By the moment I had to leave, I have studied all asanas and all pranayamas. Before returning to America, I went to have a rest on Sri Lanka. On Sri Lanka I was living in the cheapest room I could find. I got acquainted with one surfer, he gave me his board and I started to surf. But everything was going wrong: I cut my foot in a coral reef, and a very strong inflammation has begun. The place I lived in was really cheap: at first I was bitten by a tick, and then I got dysentery. I lost patience - I sat on a plane and left home. And here such monster arrived to America.

I came back home to Texas. And I got strongly confused. What does it all mean in my life? I lived in Hawaii and in India; I was doing yoga and was teaching the others. Somehow, gradually a joy from returning home became poisoned with problems: first, I needed to find a job, but the most important thing is that I did not know: What should I do further?

I went to a farm and started to look after horses; however lots of questions were constantly crowding in my head. Once, I could not bear more, I sat down and wrote a letter: “Dear Guruji, we were only doing asanas and pranayamas, and where is Samadhi? And here is a couple of questions:”Who is the God, who am I and, in general, what for I am on this planet?” And I sent him this letter. He never answered me. I was upset a little bit and understood that I should look for the answers myself.



So, I have begun my searches. I was studying palmistry, astrology. I was fasting. Once I did not eat anything for fourty days, except for grapes and drank only grape juice. I was meditating, reading books on philosophy. When I stopped to eat grapes too, I felt that I’m hungry. And I went to a temple of Krishna.



I went there because they were distributing free meals. I had lots of questions. And they have answered all my questions there and confirmed answers with various scripts and ancient texts. And then I thought: “Yes, I have to try”. I shaved my head but left a small tail behind and began to live as a monk. Complete celibate. For two hours every day: “Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna...” you should make sixteen circles: “Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare...”

They told me that my yoga asanas are illusion - maya. Also they told me that these asanas will attach me more to a material world. They demanded that I refused everything and was involved only in Bhakti Yoga. I said: “ОК” and began to do that they say. I started to travel all over the world opening Hare Krishna centers, I became a monk. Gradually I have realized that they have a really big business worldwide. We had to earn money as much as possible, but business partners should not know that we are Krishnaits. What do you think I had to do? I had to carry a wig! I could not understand why do people cling to me with this wig?



One day I remember very well. I went to the street in Krishnaits clothes and with my plait. My mother came to me. She said that nobody will buy books from me, and that is why she bought one book herself. I came back to a temple, and there they started to shout at me, because I did not bring enough money that day. And I understood that something is wrong here. Some people in a temple seem spiritual enough, and some definitely do not suffer of spirituality. Some are nice, some are malicious, some are modest, and some are selfish. But whatever I did in my life only my parents were giving me unconditional love. My parents did not read any prays, they did not carry special clothes, but they gave me everything they could, and they loved me. And when I have counted a parity of spiritual people in a temple and spiritual people who live a usual life, I have left this Hare Krishna centre.

My God, I have spent five years for that! I left the centre; I did not have money because all the money I have earned, I gave to Krishnaits. I was supposed to look for job again. And I realized that again I do not know what to do in life. Unexpectedly I thought: “No, David, you know what to do, you have finished Krishnaits’ business school. They have taught you to sell. Think about it, David! If you could sell Bhagavad Gita to a cowboy in Texas, you can sell everything and to everybody”.



And I have opened a picture gallery. I thought that it is much easier than to sell Bhagavad Gita. And again I started to practice yoga. I was wearing imposing suits, carrying portfolio in hand and was trading pictures. It was successful enough. But there was something. After a while, I understood that I want to return to Hawaii.



I have left to Hawaii, to Maui Island and found a job in picture gallery. I began to visit classes again. Again those were classes of Nancy Gilgoff. Then there was a miracle. In 1989 Pattabhi Jois came to Hawaii. Twelve years have passed since I sent him the letter, and I did not see him for these twelve years. Nancy has invited Pattabhi Jois for a seminar. On the first day she brought me to Guruji and said: “Guruji, here David has come”. He said: “So many students, I do not remember all of them”. I have thought that for twelve years I have changed strongly, then I had long hair, and I dressed in another way, well it is not terrible that he does not remember. On the second day I was waiting when Guruji will come and will help me with bends. He approaches me, puts his foot between mine, and grasps me for hips. I start to bend back but as soon as he touched me, he shouts: “Ооо! David Swenson!” I made bends five times. And each time I was rising up I was very close to a face of the teacher. He had a huge smile, pink cheeks, his eyes were shining. He looked into my eyes and started to sing: “Hare Krishna, Hare Rama...” I still do not know whether he has received that letter from me or not. But it did not matter anymore. I made a huge circle and returned to the place where I have started.



It is like in a book by Paulo Coelho “Alchemist”. He makes a huge way and comes back to a place where he has found a treasure. Then I have clearly realized that everything that I was looking for was in front of me. I have understood that my parents were my teachers, those were they who taught me an unconditional love. My brother has opened yoga to me. David Williams and Nancy Gilgoff have taught me Ashtanga yoga and acquainted with Pattabhi Jois. And Pattabhi Jois has told: “Practice and all is coming!” I understood that what I was looking for actually lays in practice. All I have to do is to use practice as a tool that will help me to understand myself.



At that moment I have realized what makes one practice spiritual. I have understood that meditations, prays, asanas are just the tool. And this tool can be used to plough the soil and to make it fertile. This is what practice does – it makes the soil fertile. If a person fulfils difficult asanas or prays constantly it does not mean yet that this person is spiritual. It simply means that inside him there is a fertile soil. And what the person plants into this soil will grow. .



Therefore, the more intensively we practice, the more cautious we should be. If you plant an ego into this fertile soil it will grow up much more, than an ego of a usual person. Therefore spirituality is not defined by practice. Spirituality is defined by concentration, intention and actions of a practitioner.



And the conclusion can be the following: there is a definition of a yogi and it sounds like: “A yogi is a person who after his leaving makes the place better than it was”. Nobody says, that yogi is a person who does certain practices or difficult asanas. Yogi is a person who makes this world better, simply being present in it. All our actions in this world create certain impulses of energy and these impulses can be either positive, or negative. And each of us can ask ourselves a question: “whether we make the world better by our presence”.



What do you think now about Bhagavad Gita?



David: It is a good book. All ancient texts are good. The problem is different: people often take information from ancient texts and deform it. I consider that there is a difference between religiousness and spirituality. Message of Bhagavad Gita is good. But I do not understand how the message of Bhagavad Gita was connected with my selling the books in the street with a shaved head.



As in any religion, in sect of Krishnaits as well there are spiritual people. I heard very often how people say: “I do not do physical yoga any more, I am doing spiritual yoga”. I was asking:”What particularly are you doing?” “I pray” – they answered. But is it true that all of those who pray are spiritual? Someone can pray and someone can do exersises to show how strong he is. But this is not yet a certificate of spirituality. In the same way as people can do asana to get strong, or can do asana as an act of devotion. It seems to me, Bhagavad Gita is a good book. And it seemed to me even that Krishnaits initially had a good intention, but then something has gone wrong. Probably, you will understand now, why I teach yoga in this way. You should be very cautious not to transform Ashtanga yoga into a religion. People like to strengthen their importance, saying: Ashtanga Vinyasa is real yoga, and those who practices other kind of yoga, they have everything wrong. Actually yoga remains to be yoga. If you like Ashtanga it is very good, if you like the other style it is good too. It seems to me, the world of yoga would be better, if we would take out from all systems a word which goes before the word “yoga”. Then people would not say:”I’m doing Ashtanga yoga, I am doing Iyengar yoga”, they would simply say “I am doing yoga”. And instead of being involved in one system or another, you are simply doing the yoga which you like the most. But it seems to me, that sometimes it is very important for people to feel that what they are doing is the best system.

I love Ashtanga yoga. But there are different systems of yoga. And even Ashtanga is taught differently by different teachers. It is not necessary for everyone to be absolutely identical. But in Ashtanga yoga there are some borders, that people would know, what can be done and what is not. If you once were at classes by Pattabhi Jois, his son Manju, his daughter Saraswati or his grandson Sharat, you got four absolutely different experiences of practice. Irrespective of who teaches, the system remains the same. It is very important that we respect each other and it is very necessary to remember that there are various generations of people.



There is information that in due time Pattabhi Jois has changed several asanas in the first series. Probably, he as a keeper of the tradition had right for that. But there is a tendency that some teachers think they can change some asanas as well. Does David think that it is not absolutely correct and creativity in yoga should begin a little bit later?



David: Those teachers are not Pattabhi Jois. Here is what I think concerning this matter. I knew Pattabhi Jois for a long time, and the changes that he has brought I can count on fingers of one hand. It never happened that in thirty years the system looked absolutely different. The sequence had the same very asanas and changes were very insignificant. Pattabhi Jois was practicing according to this system for sixty years. It seems to me if in a couple of years of practice a person starts to change something it means that he has insufficient depth of understanding of the system.



Certainly, a person can do with yoga whatever he wants: to join the first and second levels, to do everything vice versa - really, what he wants. Do what you want but name your system differently, otherwise you confuse people. When Ashtanga Yoga tradition is being kept then coming for class in Moscow, in America or in Australia you will get the same very yoga. There may be some insignificant differences but there would not be a big difference. And if you say that you are teaching Ashtanga yoga in tradition of Pattabhi Jois you need to respect this tradition. If you wish to change something in yoga call it by a different name: “Vinyasa Yoga”, “Flow Yoga” or somehow else. Look at all systems of yoga which have come from Ashtanga. Everything that is called “Power Yoga” has come from Ashtanga. Do you know who used the term “Power Yoga” for the first time? Where does this name come from?

Two persons in the USA, one in New York and another in Los Angeles used this name simultaneously. The first is Bryan Kest from California. He was practicing Ashtanga yoga. Bryan has got Ashtanga yoga from two people: first he was taught by his father, and then he was taught by Pattabhi Jois. Bryan took the main principles of Ashtanga yoga and slightly changed the sequence and fixing time and named it “Power Yoga”. Beryl Bender Birch from New York was studying Ashtanga yoga with Norman Allen and then with Pattabhi Jois. This woman wrote a book, but the publisher told her that the name “Ashtanga Yoga” does not suit, it is not clear and she had to change the name, so it turned into “Power Yoga”. But they can be respected already for naming the system in another way.

The list can be continued: there is a well known teacher in America, her name is Shiva Rea, she was doing Ashtanga yoga. She has altered the system and named it “Vinyasa Flow”. You, of course, heard about Jivamukti yoga. David Life and Sheron Gannon are well known experts of Ashtanga yoga in the past. You have heard about Anna Forest, it in all photos she does handstands. Initially she practiced Ashtanga yoga, then she has created own system and named it Forest Yoga.



It seems to me that all systems of yoga mentioned above do not have anything bad. People who have created them change something in yoga and together with it they change the name and it is normal. I think that teachers of yoga should not spend their energy and time for saying badly about other systems of yoga. You should be simply devoted to the system, to what you teach and if someone's system is worse, just say nothing about it. What seems bad to you may seem good for someone else. Do you know what the most popular system of yoga in the world is? Bikram Yoga. In China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, America and in Europe. It is even more popular than Iyengar Yoga. You may agree with it or not, but many people benefit from it. Many people use Bikram yoga as fitness because it does not have any difficult asanas, it has no lotuses. People sweat, and loose excess weight. And Bikram himself is a very outstanding person.



In general, sometimes it is easy to judge other people. Take a detached look at yourself, and probably you will see that you have the same problems. It is very difficult to get rid of weeds in your own garden. It is very easy to notice problems in others, but not to solve your own same problems.

I have already mentioned that there are various generations of Ashtanga. Now we can speak about three various generations of Ashtanga, probably the fourth generation is already coming. Also there is an old school of teachers. And you will feel that teachers of old school have the same philosophy, the same life outlook, as I have. There is a question: if you wish to be involved in it till the end of the days then why should you complicate it? Simplify! Concentrate on breath, on locks; well, you cannot make a difficult asana – it is not so terrible.

There are young teachers who say that if you practice Ashtanga, you should do everything accurately. And in some sense I can understand them; people want the practice to be correct, supervised. But even Pattabhi Jois has slightly changed some things during these years. Pattabhi Jois was a very understanding and loving person. Though I knew him for a very long time, there are many people who spent more time in Mysore, than I did. But every time when I saw him, he started to shine and smile: “O! David Swenson! Veeery old student!”



I will tell to you about the most touching thing that he did in my regards. On his 90th birthday he invited me to his home, called me in his room and took out a beautiful silk shirt out of a wall case. He wanted me to put on this shirt for his birthday. Has looked in my eyes and said: “I want you never forget me. Do not forget me”. I said: “Guruji, how can I forget you”.



And it seems to me that concerning yoga each of us has a certain purpose. It was always clear that Sharat should become a successor of Pattabhi Jois. But Sharat knows that he cannot become Pattabhi Jois, he is his successor. After all Pattabhi Jois was the only one. As well as B.К.S Iyengar is the only one. When he leaves who will take his place? Pattabhi Jois was precisely the same person for Ashtanga. One thousand of teachers are required to take his place. To understand Pattabhi Jois you need to look at my generation of teachers, because we are parts of Pattabhi Jois.



Actually all this is very interesting, because there are different generations of students, teachers, people in general. When I was teaching Ashtanga yoga, I was always putting a lot of efforts to be something like Switzerland. In all wars Switzerland remained neutral. It was always interesting to be with Pattabhi Jois but when I was visiting Mysore, I was going to classes of Saraswati as well. Sometimes I could call Manju and go for his class. I was practicing with Sharat in Mysore and on his retreats in Goa. I am in friendly relations with everyone, I love all the family. And it seems to me normal that various teachers have different ideas, own opinions. It seems to be correct, it is natural. I think the system becomes more complete when students can think independently. But what the other teachers teach is not my business. My duty is to teach with my heart, to respect my teachers and to try to live keeping the integrity. And to say things I believe in. What other people do is a part of their way. And I try to respect everyone I meet on the way. It is an unusual time now because Pattabhi Jois is not here anymore and there are students of Sharat appear. It looks like a real family, in real family children not always are able to find the common language. Sometimes there are quarrels between them. But in the end of the day you understand, that this is your family and you love all of them. In a life it is very important to understand each other and yoga teaches that.

Ashtanga Yoga is more than a person, is more than a city. Ashtanga Yoga lives, when people are practicing it, instead of speaking about it. And it seems to me that the teacher has one main objective, one basic role is to inspire his students, to inspire them to practice. It is not necessary to influence people’s lives, it is important to show them how to use the certain tool and how it is possible to change their life by means of this tool.



will tell you something that David Williams has told me. You probably saw my DVD which is called “Advanced A&B”, and in the beginning of this disk there is a small interview, and I ask him in this interview: “David how did you come to Yoga?” He says: “When I was young, I heard about yogis in India who become wiser with years. I looked around myself in America and have not found any person who became wiser with years. I have found only that with years they become more and more sick. Then I went to India and as a police dog started to look for the best, the most classical system of yoga which can only exist on the earth. When I found Ashtanga yoga, I have realized it is what I was looking for. I have decided to practice this yoga for 50 or 60 years and to look, what will be an effect. And it is true yoga needs to be given decades. We are the first outside of India who have started to practice it. Some time should be given to understand: whether we develop, whether we grow. In the end of life, probably, I will look back and I think: it did not worth this. But so far I consider that Ashtanga yoga is great”.



In conclusion of our meeting I want to tell you that it is a great honor and great pleasure for me to be here in your house. The best advice which I can give concerning the practice is the following: find a way to get pleasure from it. Sometimes people tend to complicate everything. Show them how to get pleasure from yoga and they will want to do it for all their life.